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#2322888 - 07/29/10 09:18 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: SledNeck]
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HotSpotOutdoors Specialist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 3501
Loc: Duluth, MN
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i hate it... thats horrible use of ramos' value IMHO.... why wouldnt we have centered a deal around ramos and a SP like slowey or blackburn for cliff lee instead of getting a "decent" NL closer.
there has to be more than just Capps coming for ramos. if not, we got hosed on this deal
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#2322890 - 07/29/10 09:21 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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HotSpotOutdoors Pro Staff
Registered: 01/18/07
Posts: 10879
Loc: Henderson, MN
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Mark Gonzales of the Chicago Tribune heard from a source that Wilson Ramos is headed to the Nationals in exchange for closer Matt Capps.
Ramos isn't exactly hitting the cover off the ball at Triple-A Rochseter this season. In fact, he has an ugly .241/.280/.345 batting line over 278 at-bats. But he's widely regarded as one of the top catching prospects in the majors and it's odd that the Twins would ship him off for a relief rental. Capps, 26, has converted 26 of 30 save opportunities this season and could either slide into a setup role in Minnesota or overtake Jon Rauch's ninth-inning gig.
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#2322893 - 07/29/10 09:23 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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HotSpotOutdoors.com Family
Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 59
Loc: Central MN
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I like it also. Don't think Ramos is going to be are starting catcher in the next 5 years. And besides I think the twins like Morales just as much.
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#2322894 - 07/29/10 09:23 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: 4wanderingeyes]
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HotSpotOutdoors Pro Staff
Registered: 01/18/07
Posts: 10879
Loc: Henderson, MN
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I dont like the deal either!
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#2322896 - 07/29/10 09:24 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: 4wanderingeyes]
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HotSpotOutdoors Specialist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 3501
Loc: Duluth, MN
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we got hosed. we need a starting pitcher, not a relief pitcher if we are going to make a serious push for the playoffs
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#2322899 - 07/29/10 09:26 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: Z-520]
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HotSpotOutdoors Specialist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 3501
Loc: Duluth, MN
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I like it also. Don't think Ramos is going to be are starting catcher in the next 5 years. And besides I think the twins like Morales just as much. it doesnt matter if he was going to be our catcher or not (most likely not). BUT, he is regarded as one of the top catching prospects in baseball right not and to basically give him and his value away in a trade for a relief pitcher we do not need is dumb. we should have used him in a trade for a SP. he was one of the top prospects in our system, and now if we are ever going to trade for a SP we have less valued prospects to offer PLUS, capps is only under contract for one more year
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#2322906 - 07/29/10 09:33 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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HotSpotOutdoors Pro Staff
Registered: 01/18/07
Posts: 10879
Loc: Henderson, MN
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Looks like we gave more to get him  Twins Acquire Matt Capps For Wilson Ramos
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 29 at 9:26pm CST]
9:26pm: The Nationals also acquire lefty Joe Testa, according to the team (via Twitter). The Twins announced via press release that they'll receive cash in the deal.
9:10pm: The Twins acquired Capps for Ramos, according to Miller. The deal is done and will be announced tonight or tomorrow.
Ramos, 23 in August, placed 58th among all MLB prospects on Baseball America's preseason list. The catcher has hit .241/.280/.345 at Triple A with five homers this season. His offense has fallen off since last year, but Ramos has thrown out 19 of 38 would-be base stealers. Joe Mauer's presence in Minnesota made Ramos expendable for the Twins.
9:04pm: The Twins are "close" to acquiring Capps from the Nationals for Wilson Ramos, a source tells Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports (Twitter links).
8:30pm: A deal could potentially be completed tonight or tomorrow, according to La Velle E. Neal III of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. Neal hears that the Yankees, White Sox and Braves are also in on Capps.
8:25pm: The teams are in "deep discussions," according to Scott Miller of CBS Sports.
7:44pm: The Twins are discussing Matt Capps with the Nationals, according to Yahoo's Tim Brown (via Twitter). Minnesota has had interest in Capps for a while and is now more confident about acquiring a reliever than a starter, according to Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports (via Twitter). Yesterday, Morosi reported that the Twins assigned a scout to follow Toronto's relievers, so they are clearly intent on improving their 'pen.
The Nationals are said to be asking a lot for their top players, including Capps. Scott Miller of CBS Sports reprots that the Nationals are asking for a high-level prospect in exchange for Capps. The 26-year-old has 25 saves and a 2.80 ERA with 7.4 K/9 and 1.8 BB/9. He earns a base salary of $3.5MM this year ($1.3MM remains) and can be retained as an arbitration-eligible player for 2011.
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#2322911 - 07/29/10 09:39 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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HotSpotOutdoors.com Family
Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 59
Loc: Central MN
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we got hosed. we need a starting pitcher, not a relief pitcher if we are going to make a serious push for the playoffs Are you telling me you like are bullpen?
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#2322927 - 07/29/10 10:04 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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HotSpotOutdoors.com Family
Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 59
Loc: Central MN
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i hate it... thats horrible use of ramos' value IMHO.... why wouldnt we have centered a deal around ramos and a SP like slowey or blackburn for cliff lee instead of getting a "decent" NL closer.
there has to be more than just Capps coming for ramos. if not, we got hosed on this deal
Maybe Slowey and Blackburn aren't high priorities for a lot of teams. They probably can't give those guys away. Just because a guy is rated high amongst prospects like Ramos is it doesn't mean anything. If I remember right a guy named Mark Prior was rated pretty high a while back and how did that pan out. Complain all you want but the twins year after you do a good job of analyzing there talent.
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#2322929 - 07/29/10 10:08 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: Z-520]
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HotSpotOutdoors Specialist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 3501
Loc: Duluth, MN
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Are you telling me you like are bullpen?
i didnt say that. i said we have much bigger needs to address besides our bullpen if we want to seriously compete in the playoffs. your bullpen doesnt matter if your starting pitching puts you into the position to lose the game. we are going to need someone besides liriano and pavano to step up and pitch big games if we want to seriously compete with the yankees. on a similar note, the twins bullpen has the lowest ERA in the league, at 3.19. and that is the 2nd lowest ERA of all bullpens in both leagues, only behind San Diego at 2.79. our starters on the other hand, have an ERA of 4.39 which ranks #22 in the MLB and #10 in the AL. so to answer your question, yes i like our bullpen [in terms of comparison to our starting pitching]. we should be focusing on acquiring a SP and not a RP, because were just not going to be able to compete with the yankees in the playoffs with just liriano and pavano
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#2322933 - 07/29/10 10:13 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: Z-520]
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HotSpotOutdoors Specialist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 3501
Loc: Duluth, MN
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Just because a guy is rated high amongst prospects like Ramos is it doesn't mean anything. If I remember right a guy named Mark Prior was rated pretty high a while back and how did that pan out. are you kidding me? so your saying all highly rated prospects in baseball dont really have any trade value because no one knows how they will end up? THAT IS THE WHOLE RISK INVOLVED WITH PROSPECTS... they are indeed prospects, not already MLB all stars. YES, the fact that ramos is one of the most highly rated catcher prospects out there does mean something. i was just using slowey and blackburn as examples. we have plenty of other packages to offer along with ramos to get a serious SP. i still dont follow your argument tho. your mark prior argument means nothing. just because a guy is a highly rated prospect means he has no trade value? that is ridiculously. every scout, coach, manager, GM, etc in baseball knows how "prospects" work. sometimes they work out, and sometimes they are a bust. sometimes they turn out to be world series MVPs and sometimes they end up flipping burgers at mcdonalds. you dont have a logical argument here. just the simple fact that he is a HUGE catching prospect means he has extreme amounts of value to our organization, both as a player as well as a trade piece. the twins refused to trade him in a package for a SP when those cliff lee talks were swirling around, because we thought we would be giving up too much for a rent a player.. well if we would have gotten cliff lee for a half a season and made a serious push in the playoffs, come draft time when we get 2 first round draft picks because of Lee being a class A free agent, i'm sure your opinion would be different. those 2 first round draft picks add a lot of value to a organization in terms of prospects. but wait, prospects dont mean anything and dont have value because no one knows if they are going to pan out, like mark prior
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#2322943 - 07/29/10 10:25 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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Sr HSOList.com Family
Registered: 02/12/01
Posts: 1387
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Dont know much about the capps dude, but Ramos would have never played for this team anyway.
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#2322945 - 07/29/10 10:26 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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HotSpotOutdoors Specialist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 3501
Loc: Duluth, MN
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and btw, mark prior turned out to be an excellent pitcher. he ended up being 3rd in the cy young voting in his first full season as a starter, and was 18-6 or something along those lines, leading his cubbies to a division title. dusty baker was letting him go for 120 pitches a start for the whole year and into the playoffs which ended up giving prior a big shoulder problem and basically ended his career.
this was off subject but i got the feeling you were trying to say that mark prior was a bust. he turned out to be everything he was worked up to be. its just his manager screwed his career over by using him like he was a 10 yr veteran. nowadays you see managers extremely career on pitch count and innings count on young guns like strasburg to avoid this ever happening again.
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#2322946 - 07/29/10 10:26 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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HSO Legacy Member
Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 5093
Loc: White Bear Lake, MN
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Sounds to me that the twins don't trust rauch as the closer down the stretch (and in the playoffs), so they upgraded. Also, preparing for the fact nathan won't be ready at the start of next season. I don't mind the trade, but do agree we could've used ramos as part of a better deal.
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#2322951 - 07/29/10 10:28 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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HotSpotOutdoors.com Family
Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 59
Loc: Central MN
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"so your saying all highly rated prospects in baseball dont really have any trade value because no one knows how they will end up?"
Not at all, but I am saying the Twins seem to do pretty well at analyzing there talent. Maybe this was the best offer they have gotten for Ramos.
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#2322954 - 07/29/10 10:30 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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Sr HSOShow.com Family
Registered: 01/31/05
Posts: 3763
Loc: Twin Cities
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I like the deal.
For those of you who wonder why we didn't trade Ramos and Slowey/Blackburn for Lee I can answer that. Look at what Slowey and Blackburn have done this season and how well they are pitching now. Why would anyone look at that and see any value there. If you want an ace you need to give up something more then a 4th or 5th starter with a terrible ERA and a prospect who hasn't shown the ability to hit the ball all year long.
Think of it in reverse, what would you give up for an under performing prospect and a starter with a lousy ERA? Would you give up an ace like Lee? I doubt it.
Capps can help us this year and next. There are no promises Nathan will be back at 100% next year, usually an injury like his takes 2 years to fully recover and I'm not sure he's got enough years left in his body to recover from it and still have serviceable years left in him.
Capps is making $3.5 million and may be a resonably affordable solution for a long term closer. Something that can pay huge dividends, and for that we had to give up 1 prospect who will never crack our starting lineup.
"I want to share something with you: The three little sentences that will get you through life. Number 1: Cover for me. Number 2: Oh, good idea, Boss! Number 3: It was like that when I got here."
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#2322955 - 07/29/10 10:31 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: mjgrose]
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HotSpotOutdoors Specialist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 3501
Loc: Duluth, MN
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Dont know much about the capps dude, but Ramos would have never played for this team anyway. thats false. you think joe mauer is made of steel and never going to get injured? mauer plays the position that is the most susceptible to injury day in and day out. mauer is eventually going to switch positions, via twins request (bill smith has already admitted to this) to prolong his career. catcher is a physically demanding position and their careers are on average shorter than other position players. eventually, mauer would not be able to play catcher anymore, even tho many of u think he is immortal and is going to be the twins catcher forever. there will eventually have to be someone to take over the reins when joe leaves, and ramos was going to be the guy to do it. not anymore
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#2322957 - 07/29/10 10:34 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: Z-520]
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HotSpotOutdoors.com Family
Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 59
Loc: Central MN
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I do consider Mark Prior a bust. 1 or 2 years don't make a career. The Twins took a lot of heat for not taking him over Mauer.
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#2322958 - 07/29/10 10:34 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: Z-520]
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HotSpotOutdoors Specialist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 3501
Loc: Duluth, MN
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Not at all, but I am saying the Twins seem to do pretty well at analyzing there talent. Maybe this was the best offer they have gotten for Ramos.
if this was the best offer we got for ramos, we should have said thanks but no thanks. everyone knows we need a starting pitcher, and we just sat back and watched as 3 very good starting pitchers were all traded to contenders (lee, haren and oswalt). maybe the twins made offers that the teams did not like, but there are still other people out there that could help us (bret myers and ted lilly for example). a veteran starting pitcher could do our teams wonders. for example, look for picking up carl pavano turned out for us. he is somthing like 18-3 with a 3.5 ERA since joining the twins. our bullpen has the lowest era in the NL where as our starting pitchers ERA is close to last. having a good set up man/closer doesnt mean squat when you are going to be losing the game because your starter gave up 4-6 runs in 4-5 innings
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#2322961 - 07/29/10 10:36 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: nofishfisherman]
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HotSpotOutdoors Specialist
Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 7261
Loc: Plymouth MN
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personally i dont see blackburn in a twins uniform much longer unless something really changes with him, when he is allowing 3 runs in 2 innings coming out of the pen thats really not good for him. i would really rather see capps as the closer and rauch would be a good setup man yeah it would have been better to get starting pitching but hey at least they are trying to make the team better instead of doing nothing.
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#2322966 - 07/29/10 10:39 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: Z-520]
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HotSpotOutdoors Specialist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 3501
Loc: Duluth, MN
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I do consider Mark Prior a bust. 1 or 2 years don't make a career. The Twins took a lot of heat for not taking him over Mauer. ya i guess almost winning the cy young in your rookie year is a bust. everyone knows that dusty baker caused the demise of prior. he was pitching him 120 pitches a start!!!! do you know how ridiculous that is? not only for a rookie but for any young pitcher in general. i couldnt tell you the last time i saw gardy let one of our pitchers throw 120 innings. he almost always yanks them right around 100 pitches. and to be AVERAGING 120 pitches a game for an entire rookie year and INTO the playoffs is the recipe for serious injury for a rookie pitcher. everyone in MLB learned a lesson on how not to manage rookie phenom pitchers after seeing dusty baker destroy the career of mark prior. look how special treatment strasburg is getting. he is on a strict 150 inning limit for this season which is a great idea. i wouldnt say mark prior was a excellent careered pitcher in MLB. i am sure he would have been if he wasn't mismanged and over used as a rookie. i get defensive when you call him a bust tho. its like getting a new car and putting 100k miles on it the first year and beat the [PoorWordUsage] out of it roasting the tires and dropping the clutch and it breaks down and you say it wasn't a reliable car. well, you never know how well that car would have been if you broke it in better
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#2322972 - 07/29/10 10:47 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: nofishfisherman]
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HotSpotOutdoors Specialist
Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 3501
Loc: Duluth, MN
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I like the deal.
For those of you who wonder why we didn't trade Ramos and Slowey/Blackburn for Lee I can answer that. Look at what Slowey and Blackburn have done this season and how well they are pitching now. Why would anyone look at that and see any value there. If you want an ace you need to give up something more then a 4th or 5th starter with a terrible ERA and a prospect who hasn't shown the ability to hit the ball all year long.
Think of it in reverse, what would you give up for an under performing prospect and a starter with a lousy ERA? Would you give up an ace like Lee? I doubt it.
Capps can help us this year and next. There are no promises Nathan will be back at 100% next year, usually an injury like his takes 2 years to fully recover and I'm not sure he's got enough years left in his body to recover from it and still have serviceable years left in him.
Capps is making $3.5 million and may be a resonably affordable solution for a long term closer. Something that can pay huge dividends, and for that we had to give up 1 prospect who will never crack our starting lineup.
obviously the twins wouldnt have gotten cliff lee for just wilson ramos and blackburn and slowey. the talks that were floating around involved Aaron Hicks, Ramos, Ben Revere and a couple other big prospects in our system. if a trade would have gone down, it would have been likely Ramos and Hicks + a low level prospect plus a MLB ready starting pitcher (could have been slowey, baker, blackburn, perkins, etc etc). the rangers basically gave up ONE top prospect (justin smoak) and then 3 low level prospects. the twins could have easily matched that offer if they were going to give up ramos for a pitcher anyways. keep in mind the team is only getting cliff lee for a half a season and then thats it. you dont get equal value of cliff lee back in this type of trade and everyone knows that. if cliff lee had 5 years of his contract left, you can bet you bottom dollar that the mariners would have been asking for waaaaaaaay more. regardless, the twins have more needs in the starting rotation than they do in the bullpen and that is obviously to everyone who watches twins games... and capps only has 1 more year left on his contract and then he is an free agent and everyone is going to have just as good a shot as signing him as we do
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#2322977 - 07/29/10 11:05 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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Sr HotSpotOutdoors.com Family
Registered: 07/28/08
Posts: 924
Loc: St louis Park
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I'm fine with this deal. It puts Rausch back into the position the Twin aquired him for,which he was very good at. Overall Bill Smith has made pretty good moves so I'm pretty confident if he could have pulled off a move for a strong starting pitcher,it would have happened.
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#2322978 - 07/29/10 11:06 PM
Re: Twins get Matt Capps for Ramos
[Re: jwmiller33]
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Sr HSOList.com Family
Registered: 12/13/05
Posts: 2001
Loc: Central MN
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Man, jw.... you must have some time or type like 100wpm???? At first, it looks like we gave up quite a bit for Capps, but you have to consider the supply and demand factor. I know folks have done a lot of talking about Soria in KC, but I bet it would take an absolute load of prospects to land him so he isn't going anywhere(now that I say this, he will probably be with the Yanks tomorrow...)especially with his club friendly contract. Capps was the best closer available. In my opinion, the bullpen was our biggest need because I don't feel any starters left on the market are much of an upgrade. Who knows with Slowey and Duensing(even though I like him), but realistically Ted Lily, Brett Myers, Westbrook and Carmona aren't much different than they are. You need to add about half an earned run to the ERA of Lily and Myers to get a comparison and it just isn't worth it in my opinion. The thing I like most about the deal is now Guerrier won't have to be overworked. Sliding Rausch back to a set up or 7th inning role will help him immensely in my opinion.....
"I'll make it." --- Jimmy Chitwood --- Hoosiers
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